Woodfinishers Weblog

Wood finishing forum for professional finishers

Finishing failures and what to do

This page and category is going to be dedicated to the disasters that we as professional finsihers have all had, seen had to fix, and have heard about. I think the point here is to give others a heads up and possibly avoid  the shoals that various projects have run aground on.  I have found that most failures have come about from not knowing or not understanding  the basics of what you are doing. Too many times I have had “Do it yourselfers” come in with the attitude that there is noting to the business and it simple as pie. Finishers just charge and arm and a leg for nothing. 

It is simple and the fundamentals are fundamental but you have to know them and it does take a certain amount of skill and practice, to add to that, the materials are changing all the time and what preformed one way last year has now been reformulated to be compliant now preforms slightly differently. After a Do it your selfer has had a little trouble and has seen what it really takes to do the job they tell me they would have prefered to have paid a professional. That being said you can learn the trade and it can be rewarding. Just don’t set your self up for a loss by walking into the business arogent and uninformed, thats like a  virgin making an incausious  visit to  a military brothel.  the out come is not going to be pretty. 

I have more things to add to this catagory  but I would be interested in your comments and your failures send pictures if you can and we’ll post a few light houses to save others the disasters that we have had to weather.

Thanks,

Greg Saunders

39 Comments »

  1. Curious if anyone has had issue with bubbles rising up from the grain (oak ) During spraying of nitrocellulose lacquer. I’ve seen it before,but minor.This actually left hardened bubbles and a surface full of voids. Required much more coating and wet sanding to remedy. Original finish was deteriorated so sanding and prep was quite thorough and fish eye additive was included in the lacquer. Any thoughts?

    Comment by Pete | December 15, 2008

  2. Hi Pete, Sorry I haven’t gotten back to you sooner, to answer your question: Yes that is a common thing especially with oak, in essence you are trapping air in the porous grains. that is then sealed in with the lacquer. there are several solutions, the first of which would be to either thin your first coat of sealer way down so that it penetrates into the grain sometimes refer ed to as a wash coat you can thin this first coast down 40 to 60% and the second thing would be to wipe or spray the surface with a thin coat of lacquer thinner. in effect you are accomplishing the same thing of flushing the air out.
    hope that helps

    Greg

    Comment by Greg Saunders | December 17, 2008

  3. Hi Greg,
    Thanks for fielding my call this morning. Here is my problem: stain and laquer is peeling off of kitchen cabinet doors especially under the sink area. Also, the darker glaze is peeling/flaking along the edges of the molding. They have used Frazee stain (a dark espresso color)and Valpro Valtec pre-catalyzed laquer. Where the stain/lacquer peels off, the natural light(maple)wood is exposed. At this point, they have stripped and restained the doors under the sink. They are waiting for me to select the appropriate sealant and topcoat. I am looking for a clear satin finish that is waterproof. What do you recommend?

    Comment by Jade | March 21, 2009

  4. Hi Jade,
    As we discussed on the phone the top coating that I recommend is the Rexcell Water based Conversion varnish. and I believe that we have some of that being sent to you. Sorry we couldn’t get it delivered by one of our Drivers but it was a little farther out than was originally thought.

    In any event one comment that I wanted to make was that you might not have a precat problem or a problem with the top coat but more likely a problem with the stain. You mentioned that where there was signs of peeling it went all the way to the bare wood. Hmm… that is not a good sign for the stain. The stain for some reason or another didn’t penetrate in to the wood and so water was able to get up underneath that and so it peeled. A stain is a stain, that means that it soaks into the wood and gives it a unique appearance that is different from paint which lays on the surface of the wood. If It was the clear Coat failure it would have left the stain on the wood. If the Clear coat ( the Pre-Cat lacquer) stuck to the stain but the stain didn’t stick to the wood then that is a separate issue.
    I would do a few things:

    1. Make sure that the stain is very dry before the finishers put a top coat over it. If it is an oil based stain you need Minimally 24 hours to dry. for solvent stains you can top coat it in a few hours but not sooner.

    2. If after it has dried for the appropriate amount of time and the stain still feels oily you need to wipe it down with lacquer thinner to remove that oiliness

    Comment by Greg Saunders | March 25, 2009

  5. Hi Greg,

    I have a dresser that drawer front was finished in nitrocellulose based lacquer and entire inside of drawer box was done in solid cedar. Unfortunately, after few months that back side finish of drawer front becomes sticky and oily which it may be caused chemical reaction by solid cedar. One of friends told me, it can be fixed by pre-catalyzed lacquer which it gains more resistant of chemical. My question is that pre-catalyzed lacquer can spray on top of the current nitrocellulose lacquer? or I have to sand off all finish in drawer front then re-start with catalyzed lacquer? Any advice would be appreciated.

    Comment by Johnson Chiou | June 24, 2009

  6. Hi Johnson,

    Sorry I didn’t get to your question sooner. That the lacquer was sticky and peeling off is suspect and you would have to clean that off entirely which would probably require minimally sanding it down if not stripping it completely. now there are a few points to be made having the inside of that drawer done in ceder cost extra as the natural qualities of ceder repel moths and other insects that eat clothing. In these days with air conditioning another things that is not as important as it was 50 years ago or more. So the point being you are lacquering in and defeating that quality that someone went to extra effort to produce. once you sand the coating off then you will bring back that natural ceder smell that most people consider pleasant and as well will keep the bugs out of your clothes.

    That being said if you want to seal it then you would have to remove all the old coating if it has become compromised with the natural oils of the wood and then begin again. the pre-cat might work if the moisture content of the wood is low enough. You might want to wash it down with acetone several times and let it really dry out. If there are oils and moisture coming out of the wood they can mess with any coating pre-catilized or other wise.

    All that being said, If I wanted to coat that wonderful wood I would sand it down to bare wood and dry it out as mentioned above you might even see what using a wood bleach would do for you but that would strip all the oils and all the color out of the wood. (that might be a little too sever) then I would lay on several really thinned down coats of pre-cat. having it really thinned down (like 50/50 with lacquer thinner) Makes it penetrate deeper into the wood once you have that deep penetration then lay on your final coats and be done with it.

    Comment by Greg Saunders | July 2, 2009

  7. I do woodwork and farm out my finishing to an absolute pro. But I’m having doubts. Client wanted double-bleached walnut. I’m using walnut ply and the client chose the sample based on 2 applications of bleach, which made the material very light, with some yellow and green hues. Now that we’ve gone forward, some of the pieces of furniture are showing a lot of PINK. This was unexpected. My finisher suggested this will disappear over time from exposure to sunlight. I’d love a second opinion.

    thanks
    Jed

    Comment by jed | March 7, 2014

  8. Hi Jed,
    I doubt that that pink is going to go away any time soon, it might fade out in 10 years. what was the finishing procedure after it was bleached? If you have just done a lacquer coat over the bleached wood I would guess that the lacquer is rewetting either incompletely cleaned bleach or it is rewetting the glue holding the laminate down. what kind of sealer was use? and how was it applied. I would venture to say that the bleach wasn’t removed completely which is a tough call as too much acetone or lacquer thinner and you de-laminate the walnut veneer. with the wood completely bleached there should be no color coming through. no easy way out of that. you can give it a few months to see if it does fade away, that would be the hopefully solution or you can strip and start over, doing that my ruin the doors. not a pretty picture.

    let me know how it turns out and if you would like to send me some pictures I could give you a more accurate assessment.

    Best,
    Greg

    Comment by Greg Saunders | March 11, 2014

  9. Greg, thanks very much for the response. After bleaching it was sprayed with a catalyzed lacquer. Before it was sprayed the bleach process was halted with a watered down vinegar. I have a fear about the glue as well. I’d like to send you a pic but I don’t see how to do that through this page??

    thanks
    jed

    Comment by jed | March 11, 2014

  10. Hi Jed,
    You can send me an email with a picture to greg@annexpaint.com Was the catalyzed lacquer sealed first or was the catalyzed lacquer used as a sealer ( not necessarily incorrect) and what was the brand use. I’m thinking that the acids in the pre-cat are reacting with something earlier in the process either the bleach or the vinegar those are three wildly different chemicals: bleach, vinegar, and acid in the pre-cat. I’m not enough of a chemist to say what is reacting to what to cause the pink. I look forward to seeing the picture and will send it on to a chemist who might be able to shed some light on the matter.
    best,
    Greg

    Comment by Greg Saunders | March 11, 2014

  11. greg, I got a bounce back on that email. Have another one? Thanks

    Comment by jed | March 11, 2014

  12. Hello Greg,

    I had my kitchen redone with custom shaker white lacquer cabinets. I have only had them for about 9 months, and they have continuously peeled in certain areas and seem to chip really easily. I have had the contractor fix them a number of times, but they keep peeling at the slightest bit of water. The contractor says its due to too much water, but its a kitchen! it’s going to get water on the cabinets from time to time. I think it’s a finishing problem or lacquer problem, but they disagree with me. any insight as to why my cabinets would keep peeling and cracking from daily use?

    Comment by ashley | July 4, 2014

  13. Hi Ashley,

    A contractor who disagrees with the fact that he may be at fault, Shocking.

    The first question is what is too much water, too much water is a cabinet soaking in water, such as when the something over flows and fills up a drawer and no one notices that for a day or two and the drawer is a pool of water. that is too much water. Occasional drips and drops and sprays and splashes that get wiped up is not too much water.

    I have a shop that has a few test panels attached to a board and every day the boss comes in and sprays them dripping wet with a water spray bottle and they haven’t peeled in over a year. He is a Pro and did all the earlier steeps to proper finishing proper cleaning of the wood, sanding priming and they he uses conversion varnish which is a tougher but more expensive finishing material like lacquer but harder. Minimally your Kitchen should have been sealed with a vinyl sealer and then finished with a “pre-cat” or Pre-cartelized lacquer which means that the lacquer has had a catalyst added to it at the factory to make it more water resistant, This is the product that the Kitchen and Cabinet manufactures Association recommend as the minimal standard for Kitchens and bathrooms as opposed to just lacquer which is historically not very water resistant. Speaking Historically, this is the reason that the Pre catalyzed lacquers were invented in the 30’s.

    So with out tipping your hat, I would find out from the contactor what products were used specifically what brand of coating and which ones i.e. the manufacture Valspar’s and the product Lusterlac.

    If the finisher use just a plain jane lacquer then his cutting corners because that is not the industry standard for kitchens and bath rooms.

    The first question really is what is peeling from where? Is it chipping off in places that are getting wet or all over. if you ding an edge in an upper cabinet door that doesn’t get any water does that chip or peel? If so it’s not the water. The next thing that comes to mind when paint of any sort is peeling are the preps. when you peel some paint up what is left showing? bare wood? or the primer and what is on the back of the peel? IF you peel something up and it goes to bare wood then it either wasn’t primed or it is in fact the primer that is not adhering to the surface and that comes back to Pre work, the surface was dirty or dusty or wet, something.

    I would be curious what you fined. your cabinets shouldn’t be peeling so further investigation is warranted

    Comment by Greg Saunders | July 5, 2014

  14. I moved into a beautiful rental home with new espresso wood kitchen and bathroom cabinets. We have been here two years and the bottom cabinets are starting to crack and peel at the very bottom center. It seems that it is much worse on the cabinets near our dishwasher. My landlord wants the cabinet people to come in and decide if it our fault that these cabinets are peeling. Which to my thinking means they would have to admit THEY did something wrong with the finish or sealant. I don’t know how to prove that we have done nothing to cause this problem or to find others that have experienced similar problems with their cabinets. Any suggestions??

    Comment by Tami Elliott | September 17, 2014

  15. The cabinets shouldn’t have failed that quick, the cabinet maker most likely used and inferior product that was not designed for kitchens there are a multitude of ways that you can incorrectly lacquer kitchen cabinets, the first is simply not using enough lacquer and enough coats. The second is using a regular lacquer with out a sealer. “pre-catalyzed” lacquers were specifically designed for Kitchens and bathrooms as that material holds up to moisture better where lacquer does not. Rather than asking the Cabinet manufacture what you did wrong, Find out from him, before he shows up what products he used. then research the products the next thing to do is have a cabinet guy come out with a ultrasonic thickness meter that will tell you how much lacquer is on the wood if he has a good meter he can tell you how many coats were put down.

    With that data you will be armed for the battle.

    The other thing would be that he did use the correct materials and put on enough material but you have done a horrible job of taking care of the cabinet by letting them get wet and stay wet. After doing the dishes you should wipe all excess water of the cabinet doors as eventually the water is going to eat through the finish. I’ve had more than one customer tell me how careful they are. but the truth of the matter is that they were pigs. I’m not accusing you of that, there are however two sides to every story and some gray in-between. On that note Cabinet makers generally don’t tell home owners what care is involved with taking care of fine wood work. If you clean them with a bleach product that would also destroy the finish. As well I have seen house wives so concerned about keeping there cabinets clean that the scrub the finish off. Generally you just need to wipe them down with damp rag to remove stains and they dry them with a dry rag furniture polish in moderation doesn’t hurt either
    I hope this is helpful pardon me if I was a little to Blunt in spots.
    best greg.

    Comment by Greg Saunders | September 18, 2014

  16. I just put 4 coats of Behlen on a 70 year old fir table top. After the third coat (cu 25%) the top looked great but I wanted to add a top thin coat as per instructions. After doing that there appeared fish eyes that had not been there before. Any idea of the cause or solution. I am about ready to sand it back to bare wood and start over. I usually work with oak or walnut but fir is new to me and so is Behlen. We used a china brush to apply and cut all coats per instructions???

    Comment by Reid Menting | October 5, 2014

  17. I’m not sure what your question is, the fish eye is from some sort of contamination little specks of dirt or oil have some how gotten into your material or on your brush. I would suggest Block sanding it back to where it is flat and the spraying on the last coat.

    Comment by Greg Saunders | October 23, 2014

  18. What do you think of high gloss pre-catalyzed lacquer finish for kitchen cabinets. I did two doors and like it but I have not seen that kind of finish on displays.

    Comment by Bill Fischer | January 1, 2015

  19. Pre-cats are designed for Kitchens and bathrooms be sure that a good vinyl sealer is used. Precats have been touted as “self Sealing” but I have seen failures in this system where as a good sealing with a vinyl sealer has not has failures. as for high gloss, that would be up to your taste on the matter satin or even Matte finishes are what is usually used but again that is up to your taste. for reference most all the finishes you see in the lowes/homedepot displays are satin.

    Comment by Greg Saunders | January 2, 2015

  20. Fixing cabinets on Kauai. Lanai kitchen cabs face west. Cabinets are interior grade. No rain , but face west so sun has destroyed finish. After I strip, what is a good UV and water resistant finish? Also in kitchen someone put coffeemaker under upper. Finish is slightly fogged. I think finish is conversion varnish with color in finish. Supposed to be cherry, but wood is alder with cherry finish. Typical!. What is best way to fix

    Comment by Dan Kley | January 5, 2015

  21. I used Polycrylic over water-based paint on my kitchen cabinets. I waited a full 3 weeks if not longer so the paint was cured, I waited a week or more after the polycrylic before I started handling them. As I’m trying to put the hardware on, they are scratching way too easily, even with great care. How do I get those scratches out and how do I prevent any more?

    Comment by Lorelie | March 17, 2015

  22. what polyacrylic did you use? it doesn’t sound good, you have certainly given it enough time to cure. if this is a home depo/ lowes brand I’m afraid there isn’t much you can do other than refinish them. the finish isn’t going to get harder. I always recommend testing something before you use it. you might be able to get away with a good scuff sand and then go over that with something harder. a conversion varnish I would say. Greg

    Comment by Greg Saunders | May 11, 2015

  23. Hmm how long did it take for the sun to do that damage? was this a coating that was applied years ago or something recent, if it is recnet and is a failure you should contact the manufacture if should have lasted a few years at least. the conversion varnishes are pretty good, for that you have to get a good 8 mill dry film thickness for that CIC is what I have and sell. Gemini is also a good one. I don’t personally like the chem-craft conversion varnish or the Sherman Williams one. although I haven’t use them in years and so to be honest don’t know how they would perform currently. I don’t what to bash the competition unfairly :). the next thing up would be a polyurethane designed for wood with UV blocking agents I have one that I love that I have demoed on my blog the pinnacle 149CL made by Ellis paint. about 150 for a gallon and a quart of the activator but that is what I have people putting on garage doors that face the ocean and the sun and that doesn’t last for ever. about 5 year in those conditions. For you the question would be what’s available, that being said we could ship you product just a little pricy, I don’t need to tell you that — Greg

    Comment by Greg Saunders | May 11, 2015

  24. I used Min-Wax. They haven’t responded to my questions. However, I contacted Behr and they have been great! I tried to scuff sand but it wouldn’t smooth out and then I discovered places that were gooey. I actually had to use a putty knife and scrape off in places. The paint had never cured properly. Behr replaced the paint, I had to sand down almost to bare wood and then re-paint. That next gallon of paint went on smooth as silk, no streaks, no clumps. Sooo,, it was determined something was wrong with the first gallon of paint. Behr was great about replacing the cost of the paint but, of course, I still had the work and lost time. I am ready to hang the cabinets doors and I see that they still scratch easily but I’ve come to the conclusion that I will have to make touch ups a part of my routine. Perhaps it’s the dark color, I don’t know for sure. I’ve been at this since December and am ready for the kitchen to be completed!

    Comment by Lori | May 12, 2015

  25. good to hear that Behr stepped up to the plate and made good. sometimes a bad can of paint goes out or it was frozen in shipment somewhere or something, easier to just replace it than argue with the customer and make and enemy. over a properly cured paint the min wax might work now. Min wax being carried in home depot and Lowes put them in the spot lite for all the regulatory people. And that generally results in Happy Regulators and un happy customers believe me I know I live in California the most over regulated state in the union. I have not tried all the min wax products and so wont comment badly on them, that being said, I always suggest testing products out before using them in production. There are a number of other clear coats that you can get to go over the fully cured painted surface. the one I sell is the CIC Conversion coating. easy to use and easy to spray or brush. Valspar make a product called Zenith that is pretty good but not as good as the CIC product in my opinion. best of luck on your new kitchen- amoung other things it will provide years of stories 🙂 —Greg

    Comment by Greg Saunders | May 13, 2015

  26. We just moved in in a newly build home. we have alder wood cabinets and we noticed the laquer is peeling off. Even on the smalled ding it will chip of very easily.the stain is not chipping of just the clear coat. How can we fix this. Thank you

    Comment by cochran | May 20, 2015

  27. Sadly there is no easy fix, find out who did it if you can and have him re-do it. hopefully you have some sort of warrantee The lacquer is not sticking to the stain, there are several reasons for this but all of them come down to and improper application. the stain wasn’t dry before they coated it or something. now that it is there and peeling there is nothing you can do to make what is there stick better.

    Comment by Greg Saunders | May 20, 2015

  28. I am having problems with putting glaze coat on 3 clocks I’ve made out of 2″ thick oak slabs. The problem is continous bubbles arising even thruout curing process. They just keep coming! Ive sanded n wet sanded and poured again, again same problem. I’ve soaked these in denaturex alcohol so they are dry. Ones I’ve done before, i haven’t soaked em and it was fine. Help???? What can i do to stop this from happening a 3rd time?

    Comment by Joe | December 20, 2015

  29. HI Joe, tell me the full procedure and what materials you are using. you are glazing with what and over what product, do you have a sealer down before you are doing the glazing? fill me in on the procedure and I’ll see if I can offer some advice, best Greg

    Comment by Greg Saunders | December 21, 2015

  30. Hello Greg,

    I have a question, I am not a professional. However, I have paid a “professional” to stain my cabinets and there are several issues with the project. The oak cabinets I have are about 14-15 years old with minor hardware wear and tear. I don’t know if there is a certain way you prep the wood differently for a job like this or is it all the same? The stain (Varathane, 3X) Carrington Premium Wood Stain) doesn’t seem to be taking to the wood and there brush and streak marks throughout the project.

    The clear coat that was use seems to be cracking like a candy coating. I have already called the guy more than once to fix things here and there but, it just doesn’t seem to be coming together, help. The project looks like I did the work during two weeks worth of weekend work.

    What can be done about this project is it salvageable if we strip everything off and start over again or should I start looking for new cabinets?

    Thanks,

    David

    Comment by David | December 22, 2015

  31. HI David,

    Sorry to hear the cabinet finisher did such a bad job, brush marks streaks and cracking are all signs of poor craftsmanship and shoddy work, the old oak cabinets can be restored to look Great, that is the beauty of wood. And yes there are different ways to make the job come out looking Great that is why wood finishing is a professional craft and good finishers are paid well for it. IT is both and Art and Science. there is a lot of technology behind getting a good finish. A great book to read if you want to take on the project your self is ” understanding wood finishing” by Bob Flexner. the book was recently updated and is very informative.
    You need to have them stripped and refinished. See what you have to do to get the guy to take some responsibility for the work. I wouldn’t use him again and if he isn’t going to take any responsibility you should post negative reviews on him where ever possible. For one, a professional finisher would spray on the clear coat. That he brushed it on is really amateur, that he left brush marks shows that he really has no clue as to what he is doing. Sorry you were scammed.
    Greg

    Comment by Greg Saunders | December 22, 2015

  32. I’m having trouble with clear coat on top of paint. No idea how solve this. It’s cracking everywhere similar to crow’s feet. Thicker coats are bigger cracks, super thin coats have tiny cracks everywhere. It’s awful.

    Comment by Jordan Groff | October 14, 2016

  33. Hi Jordan,

    the first questions are what is type of paint are you putting the clear over and what type of clear coat are you using. it kinda hard to say what is the problem, generally it either you application or the material, I know that doesn’t help you much. application issues that cause cracking are putting it on too thick, putting it on too soon after the paint has dried. over catalyzing the clear coat if it is a 2 component product. Material issues would be that the clear coat and the paint are in compatible. i.e. solvent over water base. although generally cracking isn’t what happened when you have incompatible products.

    you could paint the clear coat on something some clean bare wood and see if it does the same thing. the next thing would be to call the manufacture of the clear coat and ask them. that is assuming that you have read the product data sheets for the materials that you are using and that the product is suppose to be used on the things that you are using it on.

    hope that gives you a little direction,

    Best of luck,
    Greg

    Comment by Greg Saunders | October 14, 2016

  34. I was finishing a top with lacquer and accidentally sanded through my clear coat and took off the stain about the size of a quartet on a corner and can’t get the stain to blend in what can I do without sanding the whole top down a again

    Comment by Mack | October 19, 2016

  35. Hi, I have a question. I had some maple cabinets with a cherry stain I believe in lacquer . I paid a so called professional do the work. question 1 How long should a stain last before flaking? The so called professional claims the warranty ran out within a year, conveniently claims before I said something.These cabinets have only been installed within 2 years.. of being .This problem started within 6 months of being installed.I hope a professional can help me with my question. Thanks Eric

    Comment by Eric | October 23, 2016

  36. that’s a trickie one but yes kinda depends on you stain and how much you burned it. Try applying the stain to he wood with a q-Tip and see if you can blend it in the problem is that unless you went deep enough there is still some stain and sealer in that section of the wood that you sanded through and so it might not take the stain the same but usually lighter. don’t try to over load that spot with stain if it isn’t taking it. leave it a little light and hit it with a thinned down and retarded lacquer that will tend to make the colors meld together at this point it is most likely still going to be light but hopefully a litter better blended, once that is dry go over it with a touch up marker feather that in. IF it is dead on and perfect celebrate that only happened one in 50. if its still light repeat the process again and again gradiently coming up on the color. I its too dark you have to sand it back so you don’t want to go there. once you have it blended in shoot the whole top again.

    best of luck.

    Greg

    Comment by Greg Saunders | October 23, 2016

  37. You were screwed, sorry. Unless you left your cabinets out side in the weather or something the lacquer shouldn’t peel up ever. put in your complaint’s with the guy and the BBB on yelp and the Google if he refuses to fix it. then go find a real professional who has a shop and can show you sample of their work and give you recommendations. you pay the price for getting someone that is established and has a shop. But they have a vested interest in having it last. IF you are in the Los Angeles area I can recommend people for you.

    Comment by Greg Saunders | October 23, 2016

  38. Thanks Greg for your comment, I wish people took pride in their work around here. Not bad mouthing all cabinet makers in my area. I know some are very good. I paid 8500 for a small kitchen job, in it self was bad enough,but the work is where Im having a hard time.. He scratched some of the wood in transport, and shot a brad nail thru the wood on another screw up. If I could post pics here you would see how bad this really is. Again thanks for the reply and I hope I can get this problem fix without costing me an arm and a leg..

    Comment by Eric | October 24, 2016

  39. best of luck, as mentioned, go to some shops and look at their work and get referrals from them.

    Comment by Greg Saunders | October 25, 2016


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