CIC solvent conversion varnish v.s. CIC waterborn conversion coating

This is a great video from Eric Reason, Whose permission I have to repost this video comparison of  the CIC waterbase conversion product and  its solvent based alternative.  This is know as destructive testing, the video does a phenomenal job of showing the testing he does to determine which has a greater resistance to solvents. The only thing that I would want to know is how long these board cured before the testing. I love the destructive Rub testing as it shows at what point will  a coating fail.

Something to be mentioned here is that a regular lacquer finish would have been stripped clean down to the bare wood in the 10 rubs of a lacquer thinner or acetone.  by comparison to that these finishes are pretty tough. That being said don’t leave your Kids and a gallon of lacquer thinner alone in your newly finished Kitchen 🙂

You can check out Eric other work at his web site: https://www.ercustomwoodwork.com/
Thanks

Greg

CIC water based conversion coating Showcase By: Eric Reason

Eric is a furniture maker in Nashville Tennessee He contacted me some years ago after seeing my Blog with and interest in trying out the  cic conversion coatings products I had talked about so much. Determined to get good with  water based products he invested the time and patience in to the product and has become a master craftsman with them. Producing a singularly beautiful artistic creation in wood, is not a mater of divine inspiration but instead the result of a lot of hard work study and practice.  Recently he send me some pictures of some custom walnut cases he built and finished with the CIC coating  and I was blown away at the beauty of his creations. I told him I would show off the work and give him a plug.

In his own words, “Since these chests and TV stand were made from un-steamed walnut, I wanted to capture the natural beauty of the wood. Knowing I was going to use the CIC water base conversion top coat, I elected to spray and wipe back a coat of oil which I have found ambers more over time than other finishes. I then finished it up with 3 coats of the CIC water based conversion coating in a satin finish.”

Eric can be contacted for custom furniture work at the following address.

Eric Reason
5013 Meta Dr
Nashville TN 37211
615-498-4895
ericswoodshop@gmail.com

CIC Coatings Water based Conversion Varnish test

I apologize for having been remiss in my blogging duties it has been a busy year. I have a new camera and as well some new things to share.

I went back to a job that a customer did a year ago to see how the CIC acrylic coatings were holding up. In general the CIC 3022 Acrylic lacquer was doing great, on verticals and in bookshelves it looked great. however on counter tops after a year of being in side of a well attended church there were some signs of wear. Jody Toole of Jody Tool’s finishing started to do some tests to see what he could apply that would be harder yet easy to apply and yet not change the color or appearance.

the following video is the test that he did. for reference in the test he used the CIC acrylic lacquer, a 550 VOC pre-cat from mohawk and the CIC coatings water based clear Conversion Varnish. all of the panels were sealed with a vinyl sealer first. He them wiped them down with an lacquer thinner on a rag to see how fast the coating would degrade.

Additional note: although it is not shown here Jody did a separate test where he applied the water based conversion varnish directly over the acrylic lacquer and it looked great and stuck well.

If you are interested in knowing more about these products give me a call.

Greg Saunders
Annex Paint
http://www.annexpaint.com
818-349-9297

Water based grain Filler from CIC demo

For years I have been asking for a clear grain filler and for the years I have been looking the only true Clear grain filler I found was an Ultra Violet cured product, while a great product it was out of realm of the regular cabinet guy. Then CIC came up with this product that is all the things I was looking for. It is water based and dries quickly, ( all water based products are temperature and humidity sensitive) This is a product that I have wanted to get a demo video up on for some time.
My wife wanted a simple black box that she was going to put in a closet, it wasn’t going to be seen that much and so didn’t have to be fancy, I had some salvaged oak ply in the shed and so decided to make it out of that. then I had the idea to use the water based grain filler on it to spruce it up and have something for the blog, Long story short I spent way more time doing the finishing on something that is going into the Closet than I should have. that being said I home video is of some value to any one interested in the product.

About the Product:
It is water based and comes in a can it is thick and has the consistency of seriously thick ketchup or bril-cream hair gel (that dates me). You apply it with a spreader or wide putty knife. you don’t want a build you want to spread it around and fill grain any extra you have on the surface, you’ll have to sand off and it gets hard. Lay it on, let it dry and sand all the excess off. This is not a top coat it is not a coating it is a filler so you have to sand down to the wood, depending on the dept of the grain yo may have to do the process again and sand again. once you have filled the grain you can apply your sealer and top coat. SO far I have only used this with water based top coats I have not tried it under a solvent lacquer. should work fine I just haven’t tried that one. the one thing that I would say about that would be that you would want to be very dry first other wise any water/moisture off gassing is going to blush your clear coat.

The other question is at what point do you stain, That the tricky part IF you stain first and you are then sanding down to the wood you are inevitably going to be sanding into your stain. IF you sand afterword you stain in not going to penetrate well. The Trick is when you have filled the grain then sand down deep enough so that you are sanding wood. In other words, if the wood was the land and mountains and the valleys and gorges were the depth of the grain then you would want to sand down to the point that you were cutting the tops of the mountains off. And then apply your stain. If you haven’t sanded that down evenly then your stain coating is going to be uneven.

following this I’ll have a few other video demos of spraying the Black CIC water based Conversion coating on where you see the difference that the grain fill makes.

Ok and here is the video of the application:

Thinning and retarding water based lacquers and coatings

There are a few tips to thinning and retarding water based materials that are common to most all of the water based materials on the market today, knowing these tips can make spraying out water base materials easy fun and most importantly give you the control over the flow of the materials so you  compensate for the varying conditions of your environment.

One of the things to be aware of with water based materials is that they are temperature and humidity sensitive, meaning that on a cold and rainy day it will take forever to dry if left wit out forced air and some heat.

The obvious and wonderful characteristic about water based materials is that you can thin them with water; water is cheap and not explosive.  No one has ever accidentally blown up their shop with a bucket of water.  That being said   you can overthin with water and that can create a mess.

Before we get into percentages and how much you should thin, one thing you should know is that the warmer the materials are, the thinner they will be. This is true of both water base and solvent materials.   Heating pads, bucket heaters and in line material heaters are all things that you can implement.  Inline materials heaters are pricey and not something that are too common here in Southern California  but can be used. More commonly and more practically you can just keep your buckets off the concrete floor or move the bucket in to the office of the shop overnight if it’s cold out. Warming up water base is easier and safer than warming up the solvent materials and in fact with some water base materials you can even warm  them up in the microwave machine, a little impractical but not impossible.  For every 10 degrees you heat the material you will reduce the Viscosity by 10% .  And that is a good thing to know because you can reduce your labor by putting on a thicker coat save our self the labor of having to put on another one of or two more sometimes

Now onto the more practical, the first thing that you should do is adjust your equipment to the material in other words if you have been spraying lacquer with an extra fine airless it’s probably going to be too small an orifice for the water base; you don’t want to overthin it so that you can get it out of  your gun but rather get a bigger tip. Generally a 1.7 mm tip in a cup gun and or something no smaller than a .014 in an airless and that would be the smallest I recommend 1.8 or a 2.0mm tip and needle for a cup or gravity gun.

When you do need to thin the materials down I start out with about 5% water and see how it’s coming out of the gun and laying down, with water based a good heavy coat is what you want if it looks a little blue you are doing good. You want it heavy enough to flow out but obviously not so heavy that  it is running.

Ok the next thing is getting it to flow out and lay down smoothly if it has any orange peel to it then you need some retarder. I generally add the retarder whether I need it or not as I like that fact that it flows out better, this might not be true of all water bases but the ones I have used it just seems to work better with the proper amount  of retarder.

Glycol ether is the solvent for retarding water based material you can also use that for retarding regular solvent lacquers   If you use too much your coating will never dry. The other thing to know is that you can add the retarder too fast and “shock” the material. Shocking information, but true. Dump the retarder directly in to your pot and it can cause itto foam up and have an adverse reaction. Some chemicals go together easily and some don’t;  then there are others that are right on the boarder, this in one of those. So the best way to add the retarder is to mix it 50/ 50 with water first and then add that into the water based lacquer while stirring it. Start out with one to two percent of the   50/50 water retarder solution and see if that doesn’t do the trick for you.  You can go as high as about 4%. If you are working with pigmented water base materials then you can go up to 7% .

White and pigmented lacquers require more and will have a tendency to “mud Crack” (Mud cracking is the phenomena whereas the material dries it begins to crack like mud drying out)   if you don’t use the retarder, what is happening is the solvents are drying out of the pigment faster than the pigment is drying and so you need to slow the process down so that they all dry and flow together.

Not all retarders are the same, some companies sell retarders that are a combination of different things, these work well for solvent lacquers but not always for water based materials.  You either want a lacquer retarder that is made and marked for Water based materials OR you have to test them. The way  you test your normal run of the mill retarder to see if it will work in your waterbased system is to mix it  with water. Simple, if it mixes in you’re good If it separates and doesn’t mix in or foams up and looks weird then its not going to work.  There are a few manufactures that have acetone in their retarder which doesn’t mix well with water If you add that to your water based lacquer its trash.

Ok I hope this information is clear and to the point. Use it and let me know what you get. Leave comments on the blog posting for others to see. I have specifically kept this report completely generic so that if you have a product that you are trying out for the first time it is generally best to contact the manufacture and ask them what they recommend, the better companies will spend the time to answer your questions others won’t

 Thanks,

 Greg Saunders
Annex Paint

Tips for Spraying out the CIC Centurion Conversion Varnish

I have been using the CIC conversion varnish now for over a year and have been very impressed with both the product and the manufacture. There are a few things to know about this product that I have come to learn over the course of the last year of handling the material that I wanted to pass along. One of the values of this Blog is that I can document the things I have to tell people over and over, I’m sure that I’ll continue to go into shops and explain the same thing to people but it helps that I can refer people to an article on the matter.

 The Centurion Water based conversion varnish is a water based product that can be thinned with water (imagine that!). As with any coating product you can over thin the material. There are essentially 4 things in a coating: resins, binders, solvents, and pigment (color). The resin is the paint itself; the binders are the chemicals that hold all the various parts together, the glue if you will. The solvents are the chemicals that keep the paint liquid until you apply it. Once you have applied the paint, the solvents evaporate leaving a hard coat of paint. Colorants do just that add the color, different paints require different colorants or pigments,

 So now, all these things work together, the various components of a coating have different chemical properties and different tolerances. You can only put so much pigment in a clear lacquer before you have gone too far and your final product will be chalky and flat or might not stick because there is too much of the dye powder and not enough of the binder to hold it all together. The same goes with solvents you can thin down a lacquer with lacquer thinner to a point where there is not enough binder and the chemicals no longer work together. Think of a bag of concrete add a little water and you have a drive way, too much water and you have a mud pit.

 Ok the basic theory now being covered, you thin the CIC Centurion water based conversion coating with water, no more than 20 % and that is pushing the limits. Generally you thin a coating so that it will spray or roll out well if you have to thin it further than that you are using the wrong equipment and most likely need to get a larger tip size for you spay gun. (see the article form Thomas Craven on spray techniques elsewhere in this Blog)

 Here is a picture of what can occur when you over thin the water based Conversion varnish (or any water based product for that matter)

An orange peel so bad you don’t know what you are looking at. What has happened here is that there is too much water and so the binders can hold it all together. This project had to be stripped down and re-done.

FYI, sometimes the material comes to you in the can and it is very thick and has to be thinned down.  Ok that’s is something that you would expect to have to do and here is how you do it:

1.   The first thing you have to do is have the right equipment, if you are trying to spray a water based product with a small tip size then you will be forced to over thin the material to get it out of the gun. Your regular lacquer and automotive gun is usually a 1.4mm which is too small.  I have use a 1.7 mm tip in an HVLP cup gun with success but prefer to use a 2.0 mm. The Centurion works great out of an airless or better yet the air assisted airless, don’t use the extra fine tip as you might “Sheer” the material (a term use to describe what happens when the material is subjected to too much pressure) your finish will come out grainy as if you had fine sand al through your material. 

 2. The next thing to do is make sure that you material is not cold, the warmer the material is the more fluid or less viscous it will be factually for every 10 degrees warmer your lacquer (water based or solvent ) will be 10% thinner.

That mean that if you leave a bucket on the concrete floor of your shop and overnight it cools the material down to 50 degrees, you can make it 20% thinner by warming it up to 70 degrees.  Now you can reduce your labor by warming your materials as you won’t over thin the stuff and have to put on more coats to make up for all the thinner that is going to evaporate on you. you would also be saving money on thinners as well. if you are using water based materials, water is cheap Labor however is not.  

With water based materials you can actually put them in the micro wave and warm them up this is not a practical thing. Keeping the buckets off the concrete is one step. Pulling your cans in to the office overnight is another, generally the office is climate controlled. Grainger’s sells bucket heaters that belt around a 5 gallon pail, others have wrapped a heating blanket around a pail. Warm it up, no hotter than about 90 degrees. ( if you have decided to apply this principle to a solvent base material don’t blow yourself up with a jury rigged heater)

3. Sill a little lumpy with your gun spitting material instead of laying on and even coating… thin it another 5%.

4. If it  is still lumpy and or not flowing out at this point it to add a small amount of retarder. Here is an example of that scenario this is a Centurion Conversion varnish that has been tinted Brown, with the all the Pigment the materials are not flowing out.

 

Looks pretty crappy: what solved this was adding lacquer retarder. A mixture of 50/50 water and glycol either EB: Lacquer retarder.

I use to say that you could use any ol’ lacquer retarder, that however is not the case. Lacquer retarders like Margaritas are not all made the same. The Valspar Lacquer retarder when mixed with water foams up and turn into a clear solution, there are chemicals possibly acetone in there mix that do not mix well with water, that’s not to say that it is a poor retarder for lacquer.  Some companies make water based lacquer retarders

If you get the MSDS and it say the primary ingredient is glycol either EB then you are set. A.G. Layne, Sunny side, CIC and other manufactures have retarders that are primarily Glycol EB, Any retarder when mixed 50/50 with water and goes into solution will work.  

5. You mix the lacquer retarder 50/50 with water and then add no more than 5% of that to your centurion conversion varnish. The more you add the longer its is going to take to dry. When you mix this up make sure that it has gone into solution before you add it to your material, and when you do add it stir the conversion varnish while adding it slowly. Dump it in too quickly and you can “Shock” the material. Meaning that the two materials will react against each other and separate  

 In the first picture above, the walnut the job. The containers of conversion varnish that has been over thinned were allowed to thicken up by letting some of the excess water evaporate off and then they were retarded with the above mentioned 50/50 mix of water and retarder and the job came out fine.  

If done correctly you’ll have a rock hard finish that is as smooth as a good nitrocellulose lacquer finish.     

Ok, That’s my story and I’m sticking to it of you have questions feel free to send me a line.

Greg Saunders

Annex Paint

http://www.annexpaint.com

Video Demo of water base conversion varnish chemical resistance

I have become a big fan of the water based conversion varnish and as you may have noticed in the previous posts and comments I have made on the subject.

Following is a short video we did demonstrating the chemical resistance of the CIC Centurion Water based Conversion varnish. You might note that the 6 inch piece of crown molding we are doing the chemical test on is one of the panels I had in my shower last year for a few months to test the water resistance. Since that time I have carried that panel around to show people how tough this product really is. Another good thing about the CIC product is that I can ship it across the country as it is not a hazardous material.

CIC, Centurion Water based stain and glaze system

 

I have been remiss with keeping the blog up dated regularly but it has not been for lack exciting things happening in the finishing world. There are several Blog posting on the CIC water based conversion varnish. That product has continued to perform well. If you have been following the Water base conversion varnish postings It has been perfected from the original version. With the success of the product I was persuaded to bring in the other CIC products. Having had the Renner stain system I was not particularly interested in another waterbased system however when I saw the workability of the glaze base I was duly impressed and so conceded to bring the line of water based stains and glazes in to the store.

Unlike the Renner stain and glaze system the CIC Centurion system uses a concentrate dye stain and then a base solution you add the dyes to. As well the Renner system is a 100% zero VOC system where as the CIC system is a little over 200 grams per liter VOC (Volatile Organic Compounds). That being said there is no smell and no fire hazard. The Renner system is a spray only system and the CIC Centurion system is a combination wipe and spray system which is very convenient.

Ok enough of the side chair commentary, the CIC Centurion stain and glaze system is a phenomenal product it is a water base that looks and acts like and oil based stain. There is a stain base and glaze base into which you add  the CIC Centurion dye stains to make you colors and shades  there are 5 different colorants in the system Yellow, Red, Brown, black and Orange. If you need something beyond that you can add any other Water based colorant you want; Pro-line colorants or professional water base Universal Tint Colorants (better known as UTCs) IF you want to turn it into a spray on stain just add water and spray. Applying the stain once you have mixed it you’ll notice that it acts like an oil based system, It doesn’t streak and or blotch You can squeeze your stain rag out over you work wait a minute and then wipe it out with no consequences heretofore if you did that with a dye stain you would have dark splotch you wouldn’t be able to pull out. 

When the CIC rep was pitching me on this system and I was very skeptical, I have on my shelves 4 different stain systems already, including two water based systems that perform reasonably well, one of them being the Renner system which here to fore was the best of the best as far as I was concerned and I really wasn’t interested in having yet another line to deal with.  I was talked into a Demo (this is what I do all day long) and boy I was impressed. Noteworthy, is that since I have been on the road demoing this CIC stain system to the local finishers I have sold the materials to every shop I have done the demo with.

In essence this is a stain and glaze system that acts and looks like it’s oil based counterparts. It has little or no order and dries quickly, for a water based product, the biggest drawback to water based systems are that they are temperature and humidity sensitive, meaning that the cooler and damper it is outside the longer your materials are  going to take to dry.

Following will be a few short video demos where you can see the product yourself.  If you have questions about  this material or any other coating system feel free to send me a line.

Greg Saunders

Annexpaint

How you apply lacquer to plastic or glass

Lacquer Plastic and or Glass ?? How would you do that?

Simple, use and adhesion promoter, and what is an adhesion promoter you ask. This is a product that has been around the automotive paint industry for sometime, It has made it’s rise to fame in the auto industry with the advent of the rubber bumper. Painting rubber bumpers is a trick as you need something that is going to stick to the plastic be pliable and then match the paint job on the car.  

 That being said the makers of the water based conversion varnish have come up with and excellent adhesion promoter, called “Mustang” The automotive guys seem to love it and I was of the mind that I wouldn’t have that much use for it but Low and behold I has a custom cabinet shop come to me with a unique problem.

Their customer ordered high end cabinetry from Italy and made a mistake on the color so they need the color changed, OK no problem, good work for some finisher but wait the doors are a thermal foil vinyl coating. What do you do? Yup, Use the Mustang adhesion promoter. 

 Two coats sprayed on from an aerosol can let them dry for a few minutes and the lay on your coatings, in this case I was spraying the centurion water based conversion varnish as you can see in this picture.

the use of adhesion promoters for painting plastic and glass

As you can see there is a profile in the panel making sanding all but impossible despite that the paint stuck like glue.  I built this up with light coats but it only took my three light coats to do what you seen here. I used a 1.7 mm siphon feed gun with about 30 psi of pressure, just enough to get the materials to atomize.

 Once the coating was dried if wouldn’t lift or peel. I was able to scrap it off with a knife and even with that it didn’t peel.

 The Mustang and the Centurion water based conversion coating are available from my store as well as will be available on line at  http://annexpaint.com web site soon.

 Greg Saunders
Annex Paint

Sucess story using the Rexcell water based conversion varnish

Walnut Kitchen Island finished with W/B Conversion Varnish

 This is a story from  a gentleman who is a retired air force officer whose hobby is cabinet and furniture building, As you’ll see he is an incredible cabinet builder.

 As his shop is in his garage with limmetted space and no spray booth Dennis was interested in water born products but needed something that was super tough. I suggested the Rexcell  Water based Conversion varnish. As you will see it turn out stunningly beautiful.

Fore note: this product is no longer manufactured by Rexcell but is now being manufactured to spec by another American manufacturing company, the product is as good or better than before, It has been referred to as three different manufactures Renner, Rexcell and now CIC. It is all the same product, a water born Conversion Varnish.

Here’s is the Story Dirrect from Dennis : 

FIRST EXPERIENCE WITH WATER BASED FINISH

 I have been building wooden furniture and cabinets as a hobbyist for over forty years. Over this period I have sprayed, brushed and wiped on all the standard finishes that hobbyist woodworkers usually use. Because I’m in my upper sixties in age, I have looked upon the new water based finishes for wood with skepticism. I recently finished a kitchen island for my daughter’s new kitchen. It’s a walnut cabinet with a maple butcher block top. It measures 50 inches long by 30 inches wide by 36 inches high. And, I sprayed a water based conversion coating (called water based lacquer) for the protective finish. This was my first experience with a water based coating and I’m extremely pleased with the way it turned out. I chose it for it’s touted durability which was demonstrated to me by Greg Saunders, a sales representative for the Annex Company of Reseda, California. Greg showed me samples, coated with the product I used, that he placed in his home shower for approximately two months and the durability was impressive. ( You can see this test in another post on the Blog)

 The material I used is made by the Rexcel Company, and is a water based conversion varnish, meaning that it is tough enough for counter tops and moisture resistant for high moisture areas)

I used a Goldenstar HVLP air spray gun (Advertised as being especially for water based finishes)

( This is an inexpensive but quality spray gun that Annex paint sells)

Fluid orifice: 1.7mm (this size is recommended for this water based product)

Pressure required: 15-50 psi (I used 30 psi)

 I was spraying in 90 degree summer weather and therefore added 3 percent of regular lacquer retarder. Greg, the sales rep, said I could thin the product with water by about 10 percent but I used it full strength and it seemed to spray very well. I am used to spraying regular nitro cellulose lacquer and I used the very same technique with this water based lacquer. It appears milky in color when it first goes on but otherwise it sprays on like regular lacquer. You have to use the same caution on vertical surfaces as with regular lacquer. A good technique is to use a big piece of brown cardboard to adjust your spray volume and pattern before tackling your project.

 I sprayed three coats and sanded lightly between coats. I probably could have gotten by with only two coats. Remember, each coat of this water based finish lies on top of the previous coat. It doesn’t melt into the previous coat as with regular lacquer. As with regular lacquer, this product dries quickly and can be sanded within 20 minutes and recoated. It was hot and dry when I sprayed so weather conditions might alter the drying times. After the third coat, it was a bit too glossy for my preference so I waxed with a steel wool pad which resulted in a soft sheen that I was looking for. I’m totally happy with the way it turned out.

 I kept a bucket of water and a rag nearby while I was spraying. A couple of times when I got runs, I immediately wiped it off, let it dry, sanded lightly, and recoated. I really enjoyed the water clean up – of the runs and the clean-up of the spray equipment. A word here about clean-up – and this attests to the durability — if you wait until this finish dries, you can’t clean up with water – it takes acetone. I sprayed the first coat with my regular glasses on (plastic lenses). I got overspray on my glasses and I still haven’t gotten it off. However, acetone on my plastic lenses would probably not be smart.

 I made a silverware tray at the last-minute for one of the cabinet drawers and I brushed on two coats of finish with a foam brush. That went on very nicely too. Will I continue to use water based finishes? — definitely yes, especially for kitchen and bathroom furniture. Will I use it for living room furniture? – the jury is out, but I’m hoping to.   

Here is another picture of Dennis’ work. For note this stunningly beautiful Kitchen Island was built by Dennis for his daughter who recently returned from active service in the Military in Iraq.

Walnut cabinet finished with Rexcell water based conversion Varnish

 For his privacy, I have left out Dennis’s contact informations, However, you are welcome to comment on his work and ask any questions on this blog. If you are intersted in contacting Denis for custom work please send me an e-mail and I’ll foreward it on to him.

 As always if you have finnishing qustions you can leave me a comment here on the Blog or write to me dirrectly at : greg@annexpaint.com